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 Why an Alignment Forum!?

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Ion Raven
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PostSubject: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:41 pm

Because alignment is something that has existed through many RPGs and in my opinion plagued them. What this forum exists to accomplish is to discuss why it's in the mechanics, how to fix them, either through developing a better alignment system or by removing it.
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Itadakimasu

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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:06 pm

If we removed an alignment system! Smile We get Grand Thief Auto! do we not?
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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:14 pm

No, we don't. Just because there is no mechanical use of the alignment doesn't mean that alignment means nothing. In reality doing something bad means there are consequences. Removing alignment from the core mechanics of the game doesn't mean you can just do what ever you want.

Example: You are lvl 1(whatever class you want, it doesn't matter) you kill a random citizen in front of a guard.(sounds like something you would do in grand theft auto, only difference...) The guard is lvl 5 and beats the shit out of you, or if he is "evil" he kills you (no cheat code to lower your wanted level). Re-roll your character.

You can keep the alignment for player use (kind of like when you put your characters weight, it isn't that important) make it more of a personal guide line rather than a punishable shift. Rather than making it affect your abilities, it can be more like Fable. In other words, you can get what ever ablilities, spells, etc. you want but instead the way people react to you( if they have heard of you) and the way the story plays out, reflects your alignment. But I would probably allow changing certain people's opinion of you (like if you wanted to make someone think you were a badass so you can infultrait them or what ever, or maybe you have really changed your ways and people are scared shitless of you and you want them to realize you are a righteous guy now it's cool).

I know ion doesn't like people being able to change there alignments, but I think it is more because of how easy it can be, so I would suggest making it harder some how. Perhaps forcing you to repent vigorously or slaughter mercilessly none stop. I don't know.

But, yeah.
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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:45 pm

Hey, hey. I didn't say I didn't like people being able to shift their alignments. I truly believe that people can change. I guess I've better explained my views elsewhere. I actually love alignments. I just hate their in-game mechanical effects. Fable being one; if you're evil you start to grow horns and bald. It doesn't matter if you just go around stealing or if you sacrifice innocents. Do enough of it and it all leads to the same thing. And if someone wipes out a town somewhere and is never caught, why should people in another town be afraid of that person since they don't know of the evil deeds they have done. In DnD it's just as silly. Evil person is evil for beating up people. Thug is giving off a stronger aura than the serial murderer because the thug happens to have more levels. Also detecting good/evil what is it really detecting for? Destructiveness, Corruption, Anger?

Alignment to good/evil <- I think that tied to mechanics is just crap. Also crap terms to use.

Alignment to holy/unholy <- That's much better. And it should be for acts that are actually holy.

Helping someone out doesn't make one holy. Especially if they're helping a demon to overthrow a village.

Stealing doesn't make one unholy. Especially if they're stealing a sacrifice to a blood thirsty monster. If a character is known for being in line with demons then it does make sense for normal commoners to be afraid of them. But they may be the good guys in the end even if they are unholy. Holy/Unholy also provides a much better guide for players than Good/Evil. In DnD, Evil generally means 'untrustworthy' to some players [as does 'Chaotic'] and these lead to PK(Player Killing) and loot stealing within the party. While Lawful Good means prick to some players. \o/ So a player does good things, it doesn't make them holy. Holy has a lot more meaning to it. It also builds allegiances better.

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Itadakimasu

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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:11 pm

whoa whoa! I didn't know this was a DnD forum!
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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:48 pm

But just a little input.....

You said:

In reality doing something bad means there are consequences. Removing alignment from the core mechanics of the game doesn't mean you can just do what ever you want.

I'll say:

You can only do as much as the game allows you to do. (DnD, you do as much as the DM, tells u to do). I believe alignment is what drive a story progression in my opinion. Using Grand Thief Auto for an example. I wanted to drive some people. The "consequences", cops will come to stop me from killing people. There wouldn't be no progression if all I doing is killing people.

You said:

Example: You are lvl 1 you kill a random citizen in front of a guard. The guard is lvl 5 and beats the shit out of you, or if he is "evil" he kills you (no cheat code to lower your wanted level). Re-roll your character.

I'll say:

I kill a citizen.. of course! The guard will come after me because it part of the "consequences". The DM will decided what kind of guard he is (good or evil) and will try to progressive the story base on my action.

The DnD side of alignment, which I believe. Is just to keep your character in check because if he or she is evil, will motivated what action come next.

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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:24 pm

Itadakimasu wrote:
whoa whoa! I didn't know this was a DnD forum!
Well while yes we talk about DnD, this is a game development forum. Both Tabletop and Video games are discussed here. Fable, Knights of the Old Republic, and Jade Empire are all video games that use alignment.

Itadakimasu wrote:

You can only do as much as the game allows you to do. (DnD, you do as much as the DM, tells u to do). I believe alignment is what drive a story progression in my opinion. Using Grand Thief Auto for an example. I wanted to drive some people. The "consequences", cops will come to stop me from killing people. There wouldn't be no progression if all I doing is killing people.

Itadakimasu wrote:

I kill a citizen.. of course! The guard will come after me because it part of the "consequences". The DM will decided what kind of guard he is (good or evil) and will try to progressive the story base on my action.

The DnD side of alignment, which I believe. Is just to keep your character in check because if he or she is evil, will motivated what action come next.

Alignment has nothing to do with plot motivation or consequences. Alignment is just a way to easily describe a character. It's utility is for the GM to go, these are bad guys, you are good guys you should slay them. It's just a quick way to generalize actions based on what the GM sees as good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. However they are never truly needed in games as many games have been successful without alignment. ie. Jak & Daxter, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Crash Bandicoot, Mario. And sure you can make the generalization that so and so is evil and so on, but let's take at the tyrant Bowser. Is he truly evil, or is he just a greedy and lonely king who just wants to get laid with a princess? (There are many times when Mario and Bowser work together, also they never actually kill each other) Evil is simply the opposing force when you're the good guys. It's just a concept to justify what you're doing.

Anyway, my point is that removing the alignment does not just give you Grand Theft Auto. And whatever my feelings about alignment are, I want this forum to also discuss how to handle alignment if you do use it.

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Itadakimasu

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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:51 pm

Was just stating my opinion is all Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Why an Alignment Forum!?   Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:56 pm

Itadakimasu wrote:
Was just stating my opinion is all Sad
D: I'm sorry.

Anyway when it comes to good/evil alignment always gets iffy. However faction alignment can be tied into games quite well such as having a holy order that you are furthering the goals of or having a crime syndicate that you are helping to take control of an area. I like alignments when it's based on factions, countries, or a firm set of beliefs. I've just never liked good/bad because it's never concise and there's never a clear group that it's attached to.

Anyway don't feel bad. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. And there points where having alignment can push motivations and determine consequences, I was just saying that it's not always needed.

Also, you should vote in the poll
Good/Evil Alignment in Mechanics

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